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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:55 pm 
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Heck of a response, Toledo. I respect the time and thought put into it. Nice to get back in the win column today. Excited to watch things unfold down the stretch here. I will gladly eat my words if we show up and handle business in March. I hope to do so because that means we won and everyone will be happy. Go Ramblers! Hope everyone has a great week.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Thanks Toledo for one of the best posts ever on this board.

All great points. It took a lot of time to organize it all and make some many coherent arguments.

Great job1

We are living in a great era of Loyola basketball. Porter Moser changed it all forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:53 pm 
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Felt the need to make another post here after I was just alerted to an alarming stat.
We didn’t have a made field goal in the last 6 mins of the game yesterday. Probably got lost in the win but this kind of stretch literally happens in 3 of every 5 games we play. How can you not chalk that up to coaching?


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Posts: 1066
SisterJean wrote:
Felt the need to make another post here after I was just alerted to an alarming stat.
We didn’t have a made field goal in the last 7 mins of the game yesterday. Probably got lost in the win but this kind of stretch literally happens in 3 of every 5 games we play. How can you not chalk that up to coaching?


In fairness. 6 minutes. Marquise had one at 6:03. And if I’m looking at the plays. We only really had 2 bad possessions in the last 6….

-Layup by Marquise.
-Turnover by Clemons... he dribbled into the corner and was getting ridden out of bounds, forced a pass to Hall (bad possession)
-Next possession. Fazekas flops while being backed down by Tate, drawing a charge. The Tate post up has been MONEY this year.
-Next possession. Fazekas draws another charge, as Hall drives to the rim, the crowd thinks it’s an And-1... the announcers even called it like an And 1. Replay shows Fazekas’s feet weren’t really set… announcers comment that it’s an “interesting” call. I could see calling one or the other, but both going Valpo’s way was really surprising.
-Next possession, we force a defensive stop, Lucas is fouled on the rebound, and we miss the front end of a one and one
-Next possession, Marquise draws the foul and misses two free throws
-Next possession, we run the offense, Keith gets a WIDE open look near the top of the arc with about 8 seconds left, misses, Marquise rebounds, splits free throws.
-Next possession (the one truly bad possession of the stretch) Marquise gets D’d up by Freeman and blocked, Clemons throws up a prayer and we get a shot clock violation.
-Next possession. Krut gets it in space, drives and is fouled, splits the pair.
-Game.

I don't know about other games, but this game seems to pretty simply be "We suck at free throws".


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Posts: 4746
Blers wrote:
SisterJean wrote:
Felt the need to make another post here after I was just alerted to an alarming stat.
We didn’t have a made field goal in the last 7 mins of the game yesterday. Probably got lost in the win but this kind of stretch literally happens in 3 of every 5 games we play. How can you not chalk that up to coaching?


In fairness. 6 minutes. Marquise had one at 6:03. And if I’m looking at the plays. We only really had 2 bad possessions in the last 6….

-Layup by Marquise.
-Turnover by Clemons... he dribbled into the corner and was getting ridden out of bounds, forced a pass to Hall (bad possession)
-Next possession. Fazekas flops while being backed down by Tate, drawing a charge. The Tate post up has been MONEY this year.
-Next possession. Fazekas draws another charge, as Hall drives to the rim, the crowd thinks it’s an And-1... the announcers even called it like an And 1. Replay shows Fazekas’s feet weren’t really set… announcers comment that it’s an “interesting” call. I could see calling one or the other, but both going Valpo’s way was really surprising.
-Next possession, we force a defensive stop, Lucas is fouled on the rebound, and we miss the front end of a one and one
-Next possession, Marquise draws the foul and misses two free throws
-Next possession, we run the offense, Keith gets a WIDE open look near the top of the arc with about 8 seconds left, misses, Marquise rebounds, splits free throws.
-Next possession (the one truly bad possession of the stretch) Marquise gets D’d up by Freeman and blocked, Clemons throws up a prayer and we get a shot clock violation.
-Next possession. Krut gets it in space, drives and is fouled, splits the pair.
-Game.

I don't know about other games, but this game seems to pretty simply be "We suck at free throws".


Still though if you add all that up, it's eight possessions with four turnovers and five missed free throws. It could have gone a little differently, but it was still pretty ugly. I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for Porter, but at some point players have to make plays. Hopefully a win boosts their confidence a bit, and we can execute better down the stretch next time.

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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:36 pm 
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Posts: 1066
ahunte1 wrote:
Blers wrote:
SisterJean wrote:
Felt the need to make another post here after I was just alerted to an alarming stat.
We didn’t have a made field goal in the last 7 mins of the game yesterday. Probably got lost in the win but this kind of stretch literally happens in 3 of every 5 games we play. How can you not chalk that up to coaching?


In fairness. 6 minutes. Marquise had one at 6:03. And if I’m looking at the plays. We only really had 2 bad possessions in the last 6….

-Layup by Marquise.
-Turnover by Clemons... he dribbled into the corner and was getting ridden out of bounds, forced a pass to Hall (bad possession)
-Next possession. Fazekas flops while being backed down by Tate, drawing a charge. The Tate post up has been MONEY this year.
-Next possession. Fazekas draws another charge, as Hall drives to the rim, the crowd thinks it’s an And-1... the announcers even called it like an And 1. Replay shows Fazekas’s feet weren’t really set… announcers comment that it’s an “interesting” call. I could see calling one or the other, but both going Valpo’s way was really surprising.
-Next possession, we force a defensive stop, Lucas is fouled on the rebound, and we miss the front end of a one and one
-Next possession, Marquise draws the foul and misses two free throws
-Next possession, we run the offense, Keith gets a WIDE open look near the top of the arc with about 8 seconds left, misses, Marquise rebounds, splits free throws.
-Next possession (the one truly bad possession of the stretch) Marquise gets D’d up by Freeman and blocked, Clemons throws up a prayer and we get a shot clock violation.
-Next possession. Krut gets it in space, drives and is fouled, splits the pair.
-Game.

I don't know about other games, but this game seems to pretty simply be "We suck at free throws".


Still though if you add all that up, it's eight possessions with four turnovers and five missed free throws. It could have gone a little differently, but it was still pretty ugly. I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for Porter, but at some point players have to make plays. Hopefully a win boosts their confidence a bit, and we can execute better down the stretch next time.


Oh completely agreed that it wasn’t pretty at all. I list that more to say I put it more on the players for not hitting free throws/committing fouls than any coaching decisions. At least the two offensive fouls were us staying aggressive rather than turtling. I thought strategy was fine, agreed execution wasn't though.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 2494
The bad offensive stretches have become common this year. SisterJean is right that they seem to happen every few games. Poor free throw shooting definitely contributes to it, but it is frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 10:47 pm
Posts: 362
Location: Chicago
ToledoRambler wrote:
Porter’s first year at Loyola in the Horizon League was a terrible way to start. There was no Valley level talent on the roster, and probably only two decent Horizon league level talents in Ben Avercamp and Walt Gibler. The roster Porter got for his first year was:
Jonathon Gac
Gabe Kindred
Denzil Brito
Chim Kadima
Ben Avercamp
Shaun Adams
Jordan Hicks
Courtney Stanley
Walt Gibler


(Edit: Didn't mean to interrupt a very interesting discussion, but I didn't check the board before hitting Submit)

I agree that Loyola was a very challenging job for anyone in 2011-12. The year before the team was mediocre enough at 16-15 with a weak schedule to get Whitsell fired. At the same time a returning core of Averkamp, Hicks, and Gibler in the Horizon wasn't nothing. Maybe we had no MVC level talent, but we beat a struggling Bradley and the previous year these guys beat Indiana State which finished 20-14 (12-6, 3rd in MVC) by 12.

I'm glad in this discussion we didn't hear anyone employ the common narrative that implies that this returning group of players lacked effort. Sitting 3 rows from the court for every home game, I assure you there was plenty of effort. It may look like there's no way Porter's first team could have gone 1-17 in the Horizon. I believe that became possible when Porter let Courtney Stanley go (with good reason from what I heard) and concentrated on installing a new system. That left the point guard position in the hands of the slow-footed Denzel Brito with help from Chip Kadima, and freshman Joe Crisman. Given that, it's actually more surprising that we went 6-7 in a non-conference schedule that included 9 road games and three Power-5 games.

My point is simply that while Porter had a rebuilding job on his hands - and I love that way it's turned out - we should still celebrate the accomplishments of the student-athletes that were already here when it started and who gave their all for Loyola under both Whitesel and Moser.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Posts: 277
Part of it is coaching and part of it is the team's failure to execute.

The coaching part is our commitment to defense. It is our identity. We value defense. We don't pursue offensive rebounds so we can play defense. We don't foul so we can play defense. We value players that are commitment to stopping opponents. Some defensive minded players don't have the tools to play offense or the energy to play both ways. Players who struggle on defense don't play. We have some players that look like they would get offensive players, but we never saw them because they could not play defense.

Because of our commitment to defense, our offense can look anemic. If you look at the games we played in our F4 season, we suffered these types of droughts. As long as we are stopping the other team, the droughts don't seem as bad. However, when the other team is scoring despite our good defense, then it looks bad.

The players are also to blame. We fail to execute. We miss open shots. We miss free throws. We turnover the ball. Some of its is because some of our player's lack DI experience in tight games. I watch the substitute pattern - I don't see anything that looks like a bad coaching decision. I have faith in our players to execute. We have the best roster that we have had in my 36 years of watching Loyola basketball. I don't see any players that should be playing that aren't.

Porter can make all the coaching decisions he wants, but if we can't shoot a free throw or hit an open jumper - we won't score.


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 Post subject: Re: Brutal Honesty
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:53 am 
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Sister Jean, I've been trying to track down the source for your "Close Game Career Winning Percentage" stat, but the closest I got was a passing reference to a similar metric by Jordan Sperber, an analytics guy who publishes a newsletter, "Hoops Vision". The newsletter is subscription-only.

Is Hoops Vision your source? That would mean you subscribe to it, which suggests you are into analytics. This surprises me as I think of analytics as a young man's game, while your prose style seems more mature.


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