Yes, I personally do not see the vauntd superiority of the MVC over the Horizon League. For years, it was Butler and everybody else. Now, apparently, it's Wichita State and everybody else. What's the difference? At least the schools in the Horizon League were mostly in urban areas. More like us.

Here are the conference RPI's for the past years (color coded for consistency):

2013-2014: 11 & 13
2012-2013: 9 & 12
2011-2012: 8 & 14
2010-2011: 11 & 15
2009-2010: 9 & 10
2008-2009: 11 & 12
2007-2008: 6 & 9
2006-2007: 4 & 10
2005-2006: 6 & 14
2004-2005: 7 & 18
2003-2004: 11 & 14
2002-2003: 10 & 14
2001-2002: 11 & 19
2000-2001: 11 & 15
1999-2000: 8 & 13

In case you didn't guess it, the MVC is in red and the Horizon is in blue. The highest the Horizon has ever been is #9. The MVC was #4. The Horizon has been the top 10 exactly once. The MVC has been in the top 10 8 of the last 15 years. The average conference RPI for the Horizon for the past 15 years has been 13 while the MVC has been 9.

So, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The competition in the Horizon is NOT better than the MVC. In fact, it is empirically and markedly worse.

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Cigarboy sucks!

Maybe that was closer to the truth when Butler was in the Horizon. They're not anymore. We didn't leave the MCC/Horizon, they left us. We were the last remaining original member of the conference when Butler left. The conference we co-founded with a group of private schools in larger midwestern cities is now composed of Detroit, Valpo, and seven public schools. Xavier, Evansville, Dayton, St. Louis, Marquette, LaSalle, Duquesne, and Oral Roberts got out of the MCC/Horizon when they could, and if Detroit or Valpo had the resources and were invited to the A10 or MVC, you can bet they'd be gone in a heartbeat. UIC and Milwaukee would probably do the same-- UIC appeared to be pretty joyous when the rumor floated that they were gone to the MVC, a move they actively courted. Were all of these schools who already got out or who tried to get out totally mistaken?

Look, we hung in to the MCC/Horizon for way too long. We hung in when mismanagement of the league in 1991 caused the Great Midwest to be formed, taking with it St. Louis and Marquette, and drawing them into DePaul's orbit. We hung in when the conference lost its automatic NCAA bid in 1993-94. We hung in when the complexion of the conference was totally re-made with the addition of six public schools at once from the Mid-Con in 1994-95. We hung in when we were forced to compete in the same league in the same market with a school that had publicly-funded facilities. We hung in as Xavier and LaSalle left in 1995-96, leaving only three private schools out of 9. We hung in there when the league headquarters was two and a half miles from Butler, and the tournament rules started to be suddenly changed whenever Butler was beaten. We hung in there in 1999-2000, when we were called for 44% of all the technical fouls called in the entire league (not one of which was called against us in non-con games). And we hung in there for one year after Butler left. Our exit was long overdue, and anybody else would have done exactly the same, probably much sooner.

I was thinking we visited you first and then you returned. Guess I got that backwards. Oops.

This isn't the best year to judge the MVC as there's a lot of young teams and some new coaches building something. You'll see much more improvement next year from Illinois State, Missouri State, Drake and UNI for sure. SIU and BU should also be better. Indiana State should still be good but they may fall a little adapting to life without Odum.

The MVC will definitely continue to be better than the Horizon and those that don't know the history will see it in due time. I don't blame some for not being overly excited about the teams this year. Lots of youth.

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The Roundhouse

Really looking forward to this. LU always takes care of their alumni.

Looking forward to a great crowd tomorrow. Loyola by 7.

Thank you, gentlemen, for the history lesson.
But it is HISTORY.An empirical analysis comparing the Horizon League and the MVC, or a dissection of the politics of the Horizon League is certainly interesting, but it's not going to get rears in the seats at the Gentile NOW. Most of the people on this board are undoubtedly dedicated basketball fanatics. Most of the rest of the world are not. "The Rest" will go to basketball games if the team is winning, if it is fun, if it is affordable, if they can personally identify and relate to the team, if they find the opponents interesting from THEIR perspectives. And "the Rest" do not find the teams of the MVC particularly compelling. They're not necessarily WRONG.

Not quite the wrong way, after those minor edits John.


Excellent job though with all of this. Your 2nd post in particular is fantastic. Good insight. Need to check back here more often.

It's an even bigger disparity when you look at how many different schools have made the Tournament, and won a game or two over the last 10 years. "It's Wichita State and everyone else"...except for the years it's been SIU, Bradley, UNI, or Indiana State headed to the NCAA, with SIU, Bradley, and UNI (plus Wichita State) each having reached the Sweet Sixteen since 2006. The Horizon League is equal to a conference that's had 40% of its schools reach the Sweet Sixteen in 7 years? The MVC schools also do something crazy that the Horizon schools don't: invest in their programs and have fans attend games. They have their conference championship broadcast nationally on weekend on CBS and a cable deal with Fox Sports...the Horizon has their Championship on a weeknight on cable, and the Horizon League Network on the internet. If you honestly can't see the difference, then you're either not looking or looking with blinders on. But roggirl has been looking at this with the blinders on since we switched leagues.

I think we are closer than you think on this point, Rog.

I absolutely agree that fans will come out to see what interests them. Allow me to provide an anecdote. When we were in the Horizon League, I knew all of 2 people that went to rival schools: 1 from Butler, 1 from Milwaukee. When it comes to the MVC, putting aside my past at Drake, I know a bunch of people that went to ISUred, Bradley, SIU, and UNI. I would venture a guess that most folks from Chicago/Illinois are in the same boat as me. CSU, YSU, WSU...those games never interested me because they are nothing more than directional schools. Additionally, those schools have next to no national recognition. WSU, UNI, SIU, Bradley, Drake...those are schools that have been NCAA darlings. The MVC is FAR more interesting of a conference...the competition is FAR better...and it is bound to be much more fun in the Boxcar with opposing fans (who live locally) screaming for their team. That SIU game? That was fun! You'll see the same thing with ISUred and Bradley come in. Heck, you'll probably get good crowds from UNI and WSU!

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Cigarboy sucks!

First and foremost--WIN !

Now then, I would defend Gal because she comes to games--she IS a gentle lady--She embraced the HL--I am OK with that--

BUT the Valley is and has been a big-time Conference--Their schools are HOOPS oriented and have been for YEARS !! WSU, SIU, INDSU EVANSVILLE BRADLEY--especially Bradley-DRAKE those schools are Hoops Tradition. Size of city to me means little--See Kentucky, Kans, Kans St, Duke to name a few--along with Gtn, BC, Villanova, UCLA UTAH to name but a few on the other side.

Gal, its the HISTORY and tradition of HOOPS--And THAT did not come from the likes of the HL--,cept for us and Detroit.

Why am I so enthused about being in the VALLEY--Those names--not the Green Bushes and UICs of the world. TRADITION !! A fan such as you will come around--you'll see. BTW , you might ask, what school was one of only TWO to beat us in 1963 ?? THE SHOCKERS !! Yup ! The same . You will find them as I did then to be a class act--not like a certain bunch from the large metropolitan city of Indianapolis.

GO RAMBLERS